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silwritersguild[Those who initially expressed interest in helping set up a tumblr for the SWG have agreed to hold the discussion here on LJ. Anyone is welcome to participate, whether you are part of the group that said you'd help out or not.]
I would like to kick off our discussion of the SWG Tumblr satellite by beginning with the points that were brought up on the first post about the Tumblr satellite. Before we begin, a few points of clarification will hopefully be helpful in keeping the discussion from drifting off in unproductive directions. :)
I think a good point to begin discussion is: What kinds of content do we want to allow on the SWG tumblr? At a minimum, the tumblr will include group news and announcements from admins. (This would include links to the newsletter, any events we're running, etc. ... the kinds of stuff that we mod-types already post to our satellites as a matter of course.) This is sort of the baseline, and it may be that we decide that this is all we want. However, the original discussion suggested the possibility of including the following as well:
Anything else you could see going on the SWG tumblr??
Several concerns were brought up in the first discussion with enough frequency that I think they bear addressing here as well.
So I think the main goal of this first post is to figure out what we want to allow on the SWG tumblr. Of course, any other points of discussion that you want to bring up here are welcome too!
Comments on this post will be publicly viewable. If you have something you'd like to say off the record, our door is always open: Email the SWG mod team at [email protected].
ETA: There has been a lot of productive discussion on this post. Thank you all. I will be holding off on posting the next discussion topic until the beginning of next week, since many people use the weekends to catch up on stuff like this. I am still very much interested in hearing the opinions of our members on the questions above. (Many of the comments are discussions on comments; keep in mind that relatively few people have actually responded! :) Nor are you obligated to wade through 70+ comments in order to participate. I'm interested in hearing thoughts on the questions above, even if you don't have time to review what's already been said.
I would like to kick off our discussion of the SWG Tumblr satellite by beginning with the points that were brought up on the first post about the Tumblr satellite. Before we begin, a few points of clarification will hopefully be helpful in keeping the discussion from drifting off in unproductive directions. :)
- This will be an SWG group, run under SWG guidelines. We have always strived to create an online fannish space that is both welcoming and inclusive, as well as civil and open-minded. As such, any decisions made about the Tumblr satellite have to be able to accommodate existing group rules and these goals that are as old as the SWG and indeed one of the reasons I founded it.
- This satellite is not intended to replace any of the other SWG satellites. Tumblr is good for some things and not so good for others. Part of our purpose should be figuring out what it is good for and how we can best use that to allow the SWG to reach more of the Silmarillion fandom.
- Any submissions to the SWG tumblr by non-admins will be moderated, i.e., will have to be approved by an admin before appearing on the SWG tumblr.
I think a good point to begin discussion is: What kinds of content do we want to allow on the SWG tumblr? At a minimum, the tumblr will include group news and announcements from admins. (This would include links to the newsletter, any events we're running, etc. ... the kinds of stuff that we mod-types already post to our satellites as a matter of course.) This is sort of the baseline, and it may be that we decide that this is all we want. However, the original discussion suggested the possibility of including the following as well:
- Silmarillion-based stories
- links to Silm-based stories
- Silm-based artwork
- discussion posts/questions
- questions (i.e., requests for canon/research/language/etc. help)
- round-ups of links to updates on the archive
- round-ups of links to posts/discussions on other SWG satellites (LJ, DW, and Yahoo!)
- announcements from other groups relevant to the Silm fandom (challenges, etc.)
- links to interesting articles/resources (related to Tolkien, fandom, writing, or all of the above!) outside of Tumblr
- links to interesting articles/resources (related to Tolkien, fandom, writing, or all of the above!) within Tumblr
Anything else you could see going on the SWG tumblr??
Several concerns were brought up in the first discussion with enough frequency that I think they bear addressing here as well.
- Reblogging. The nature of Tumblr is that anyone who belongs to the site can reblog anything posted to the site, adding their own comments and presenting the original content to a whole new audience. This means that, while we can require content posted to the SWG tumblr to conform to site rules, then we have no control over what happens to that content once it is reblogged. For example, if we allowed stories to be posted to the tumblr, a person could reblog that story and add nasty or mocking comments that would not be allowable under the SWG's etiquette guidelines. A discussion that starts on our tumblr could be reblogged and devolve into incivility or insults lobbed at the original poster. There is nothing that we can do about any of these things.
The SWG has become a safe space for many people, who know that they can post stories, questions, ideas about the canon, etc. without being attacked, mocked, or treated cruelly. That doesn't mean that we don't have heated discussions and disagreements sometimes ... we do, and this is a good thing. But I like to hope that we also maintain a level of civility in those disagreements where people do not feel attacked or piled upon. I think it is essential to keep this group (even on Tumblr!) as a safe space and a civil space. - Inability to edit/delete. Once something is posted to the SWG tumblr, my understanding is that the original poster can no longer delete (or edit?) it. Certainly, once something is reblogged, even if the original post is deleted--because we would certainly honor any requests to delete content posted to the SWG tumblr from the original poster--then those reblogs remain in place, and so the content is still publicly available, presumably in its original (unedited) form. This could become a problem for some content, like stories, where the author might be inclined to remove or edit a piece down the road.
So I think the main goal of this first post is to figure out what we want to allow on the SWG tumblr. Of course, any other points of discussion that you want to bring up here are welcome too!
Comments on this post will be publicly viewable. If you have something you'd like to say off the record, our door is always open: Email the SWG mod team at [email protected].
ETA: There has been a lot of productive discussion on this post. Thank you all. I will be holding off on posting the next discussion topic until the beginning of next week, since many people use the weekends to catch up on stuff like this. I am still very much interested in hearing the opinions of our members on the questions above. (Many of the comments are discussions on comments; keep in mind that relatively few people have actually responded! :) Nor are you obligated to wade through 70+ comments in order to participate. I'm interested in hearing thoughts on the questions above, even if you don't have time to review what's already been said.
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Date: 2013-10-16 02:29 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-10-16 02:57 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2013-10-16 02:36 am (UTC)I saw several troubling things on my Dashboard today. An argument about Hitler. I can't remember what else at the moment. I am developing a thicker skin and the ability to scroll really quickly.
I would think links, announcements, other roundups of information.
I would not put my own fiction up on Tumblr on my own blog. I link fiction to Tumblr from the SWG or AO3. But there are a whole set of Silm writers who are willing to post fic on Tumblr and not on an archive, the logic being it is not ready for Prime Time. I do not understand that logic. If I am insecure about a story or think I want to change it, I can delete or alter the original on an archive. As you noted above, Tumblr is forever, and once anything is reblogged it is beyond one's control.
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Date: 2013-10-16 10:04 pm (UTC)I would be okay with posting links to stories, but I haven't seen a lot of discussion on that (at least that I remember, having read through the comments quickly at work).
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Date: 2013-10-16 02:44 am (UTC)The artwork I'm a bit more iffy about. Theoretically the same concerns would apply, but in the case of art I'm less concerned about drama and more concerned about the artist's credit and/or artist statements being removed. This seems to be a fairly common occurrence on tumblr (to my perpetual disgruntlement).
I think all the other content sounds good, although the discussions would get unwieldy and again there is always the risk of them getting co-opted or derailed.
Re: editing/deleting posts. The original poster CAN edit or delete a post, but neither change will affect any iterations of the post that have already been reblogged.
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Date: 2013-10-16 10:10 pm (UTC)The latter seems to be the consensus, which I am relieved about. Posting fiction to Tumblr seems to contradict several of our group's values, which is a problem, imo! :) I personally agree about the links too, although I'd extend that to Silmfic posted anywhere (I am not sure if that should include Silmfic posted to personal tumblrs ...) I can see the reasoning behind SWG-only for links; I suppose I am thinking more that posting SSPs to Silmfic posted on sites other than the SWG has always been allowed on all of the satellites.
I'm less concerned about drama and more concerned about the artist's credit and/or artist statements being removed. This seems to be a fairly common occurrence on tumblr (to my perpetual disgruntlement).
Totally agreed. If we allowed art, it would only be posted by the original artist. No posting of art you didn't make! Just like we would never allow someone to post a story s/he didn't write (I don't really understand why art is treated so radically different ...).
discussions would get unwieldy
Yes. Agreed again. Tumblr is awful for discussions, even in my limited experience. And we have this community (and the almost-dead Yahoo! group), which is much better suited for discussions (and allows much more moderation).
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Date: 2013-10-16 06:07 am (UTC)Once something is posted to the SWG tumblr, my understanding is that the original poster can no longer delete (or edit?) it.
In general, posts will remain editable indefinitely, but that won't impact any potential reblogs - so, say, if the SWG tumblr posts a broken link, that can be fixed in the original post, but will remain broken in any reblogs made before the correction. The same caveat applies for deletion, no reblogs of a deleted post will be removed. It's with submissions that the submitter will lose all control over a post - once submitted and let through, it operates just like a normal post that was made by the SWG's mods, with exception that it'll be marked as "submitted by" in the header.
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Date: 2013-10-16 10:23 pm (UTC)I see your point with respect to the redundancy of a roundup of stories posted to the SWG, since this is included in the newsletter. (Also, these people aren't choosing to link their work on Tumblr and might be opening it up to unwanted commentary/attention as a result? Am I being overly cautious here?)
Questions ... I love the idea in theory, but this would require someone to research and answer the question. If we had a group of people interested in doing that, I could see that being a possible addition. (And, iIrc, you cannot reblog replies to asks? So this would effectively eliminate discussions getting out of hand in reblogs ...?)
A Question Answering Thing
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Date: 2013-10-16 10:26 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2013-10-16 01:05 pm (UTC)If we want to do more:
~ questions (i.e., requests for canon/research/language/etc. help)-- especially if the answers are sourced; most stuff on Tumblr isn't, even in so-called meta. At the same time, if they're sent via Ask or Fanmail, only the mod(s) will be able to see it and answer.
(And add me in as yet another person who wouldn't dream of posting fic there because of the lack of control.)
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Date: 2013-10-16 10:32 pm (UTC)There is some discussion up-thread of posting links to stories. I am tentatively okay with this--kind of like people used to post SSPs on Yahoo! Groups back in the day when there still was a Yahoo! Groups to speak of--but am curious if posting links to stories has generated negativity in the past that you (or anyone) knows of?
Questions I think would be a good addition except that we'd need someone willing to do that research. Perhaps this might be contingent on how many people we get who are interested in helping with the SWG tumblr? Ideally, I would love to allow this if it was something we have the peoplepower to accomplish.
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Date: 2013-10-16 04:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-10-16 10:35 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2013-10-16 04:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-10-16 10:36 pm (UTC)Our tumblr is set up, though without content at the moment: http://www.tumblr.com/blog/silmarillionwritersguild
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Date: 2013-10-16 11:42 pm (UTC)Links to discussions here? Perhaps this is me being fanciful, but I would love to see more discussion happening here.
On links to stories:
I'm wavering between links to SWG stories or stories posted anywhere. On one hand, I have absolutely no problem with sharing stories that happen to be posted someplace other than SWG! On the other, the concern you expressed of "[linking] might be opening [a fic] up to unwanted commentary/attention as a result?" is something that crossed my mind as well. If links were to stories that were only on SWG or its affiliate sites (LJ group, etc.), then any comments made directly on those stories would fall under our jurisdiction. Thus, once a person clicked from Tumblr over to SWG or LJ, we could enforce our "No assholery" rule. Of course, if someone follows a link to a story on SWG, then goes and types a flaming comment on their own Tumblr, we cannot prevent them from doing so -- but that possibility already exists.
Another secondary question: what stories get linked? New fics? Old fics? Fics with a theme-of-the-season/month/moderly whim? Do we get specific permission? Does posting to the archive automatically make it assumed your fic may be linked on the Tumblr, unless you opt out?
On questions:
This may be more a "Point the Second", but how would we handle questions? Would SWG-as-an-entity (i.e. the mods and any volunteers/victims/etc. given posting privileges) answer them? Or would we post the question itself to the Tumblr group, and then anyone could post a (moderated) reply? My initial inkling is that we should avoid acting as some kind of informational authority, so I have hesitations about us as mods or a designated panel answering questions with mod hats on and am unsure how the "Ask me" feature a) works and b)how to remove my mod hat were I to answer!
I really hope that made sense. :S If not, I'll try to explain myself further!
Disclaimer: This confusion/concern may also be down to not having a blind clue about how Tumblr's features do or do not work.
On Silm-related announcements from other groups:
I don't immediately see why not!
On interesting articles (from anywhere):
Again, I don't immediately see why not!
There, I think that's all for the moment.
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Date: 2013-10-16 11:58 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2013-10-17 12:56 am (UTC)What there does seem to be more favor for is more of an "SSP" type thing: a person who is promoting a new (or old!) story links to her own work. I am finding myself more cool with that. (WTH kind of weird sentence was that?!) In that case, the person presumably knows what they are getting into. They are a Tumblr user, at the very least. They know how reblogging works, and that said snarky comment might be added. I kind of feel like the comments on the story on archives fall under that umbrella as well. If they link to something posted on the SWG, the will presumably understand that ensuing comments are under our jurisdiction, so to speak, subject to the ban on commenters acting like asshats. If they link to a site with less stringent commenting standards, they are presumably okay with those standards.
Questions: I think this is thorny territory, in part because I don't feel like I have enough information right now to make a good decision. And I do have several misgivings, namely that ...
I've commented above that I think a good idea, if we want to pursue this possibility, might be to get the dang tumblr started first, then ask for volunteers, then see how many we get. To address the issue of giving more weight to subjective answers to questions than is perhaps warranted, if we had a number of volunteers, we could post the answers of anyone who wanted to answer, resulting in what might be a bunch of different opinions/outlooks. But this is, again, getting into discussion territory ...
As I said, thorny! :) And it occurs to me that we have this lovely community that I know more than just you and I would like to see used more, where such questions can be posed and have, in the past, often received extensive discussion. I've suggested a roundtable discussion for the newsletter on our mod forum too, in the past, but never had the time to make this work.
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Date: 2013-10-17 01:54 am (UTC)I would be willing to get involved on that side, depending on how things were set up.
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Date: 2013-10-17 09:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-10-17 02:30 pm (UTC)I'd like to see the SWG have a presence on Tumblr, but to control fic, discussions, etc. on our preferred venues (the archive, the LJ).
Some comments on "asks" and "meta": I'd just as soon see those handled here (the former) and refer to the LJ discussion on Tumblr, and retain "meta" as properly sourced/cited reference articles. I'm afraid I'm pretty hard-line about the latter, and consider a lot of the so-called meta I see on Tumblr to be sloppily cited and so ridden with personal opinion/interpretation that any kind of analysis becomes futile. Not that there's anything wrong with personal interpretation, but not when it comes across as "scholarship." Loosely speaking.
This is why I deeply appreciate the reference articles on the SWG. They are well-researched, and when personal opinion is given, it is made clear that it is just that.
More ranting (hopefully constructive) later...
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Date: 2013-10-17 09:37 pm (UTC)The question of questions (asks ... whatever ... I am not down with the tumblrspeak yet ;) has generated the most varied responses so far. I like the idea of a place where people can ask for help finding information. (Not interpreting the sources--that is every person for him/herself! :) But I think (and this is speaking personally, not in a decision-making capacity) that Tumblr isn't ideal for this for several reasons. It's a horrible venue for discussion, and I'm assuming that discussion has the potential to ensue on any such post. Discussion on Tumblr presents the civility issue, which is a big one for me, as I don't want our group's presence there associated with some of the nasty behavior that goes on. And I do share the concerns of several people up-thread that unilateral answer to questions of canon might give the impression of an "SWG-endorsed interpretation," which is not only contrary to the group's purpose as a place open to a variety of readings and interpretations of the texts, but might also, I fear, create negative impressions. We are already regarded by many as a place that, because of the quality of story that tends to be posted on the archive, is intimidating for authors, and I really don't want to fuel those flames. Even though it's complimentary to our authors that they make such a strong impression, it is not a reputation for the site that I want to encourage by seeming to narrow even more what is okay to post with us.
LJ is, in my opinion, an awesome venue for discussion. If everyone was opposed to centering so much activity on LJ, we have options for setting up a blog or forum on the site. (Although LJ accepts logins from a variety of other sites--though not Tumblr!--as well as anonymous comments, so it will be hard to find something more open, imho, that also offers ways to easily track discussions and where most people already have accounts.)
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Date: 2013-10-17 02:31 pm (UTC)Also, although I am not a writer, still, Indy's posts express my feelings on the subject.
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Date: 2013-10-17 09:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-10-17 06:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-10-17 09:41 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2013-10-20 08:52 am (UTC)Minor idea--and I don't know how feasible it is--you mentioned the possibility of a recurring random feature, as in the Random Story box. This seems an unpopular suggestion for the stories, but could perhaps more usefully be applied to the contents of the References section, assuming the authors were happy with that? (For instance, a random character bio box?) I think the HASA interface may have such a feature and it is good to remind people what resources are already there and that they do not have to keep reinventing the wheel.
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Date: 2013-10-20 02:42 pm (UTC)On the SWG site, that would be easily accomplished. MPTT (which I also designed) has something similar but features a rotating quote.
On Tumblr, the coding side would be easy, I think (although it would depend on the theme used; the current theme doesn't readily offer a place for that sort of thing); the difficulty would lie in getting permission from the writers, which would be essential, imo, given the views expressed here of how some people want their work nowhere on Tumblr. While I cannot emphasize enough (and this not just in respect to Tumblr but in general) that linking is how the Internet works and one may end up linked places one doesn't like, then I don't think that the SWG needs to enable linking in such a way that people find uncomfortable.
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